By Suzanne Westenhoefer
h, Suzanne, there's something I want to add to the interview. I said I like blonds, but, you know, that's not enough. They have to have something here," Martina Navratilova says as she points, with an almost childlike gesture, to her heart.
Looking nothing like the muscular tennis tigress who won an unsurpassed nine Wimbledon singles championships and more like a vulnerable little boy in a baseball cap, Martina leans in and reiterates her point: "It's no good for me unless they have a good heart." And after a day of candid conversation, I see Martina wants it known that, after all the accolades, this is finally what's most important to her: finding the right mate with a good heart.
In New York City to promote the Rainbow Card, a VISA credit card designed for lesbians and gay men, Martina has turned what was supposed to be a one-hour interview in the lobby of the Waldorf Astoria Hotel into an all-day marathon including dinner with Billie Jean King, an Elton John concert after which we met the singer backstage, and a quiet prebirthday fete honoring Martina's 39th at a tiny lesbian bar in the West Village.
Martina is so easy to talk with, it's hard for me to remember I'm sitting with one of the most recognizable names in sports history, the woman who has won more tournament titles than anyone else—male or female—in tennis history. But for me this history began six years after Martina defected from Czechoslovakia in 1975. Despite being a lesbian, I was never interested in sports. Then, one summer in 1981, while nursing the flu in front of the TV, I stumbled upon a blond ponytailed woman playing fierce tennis. I was mesmerized. So this was the Martina being whispered about in the gay community I had so recently joined.
Even the most sports-illiterate among us know Martina's history: the tennis, being out when out wasn't chic, the famous lovers (real and rumored), and, of course, the infamous gal-pal suit with Judy Nelson. But when I finally met her for the first time on the eve of the 1993 gay and lesbian march on Washington, I quickly discovered that there was so much about her that never came across on TV or on the tennis courts: her charm, her warmth, her easygoing frankness, and, most surprisingly, her gentle humor.
"Martina is so muscular and strong that people get a visual impression that she's hard as a person, but she has a very soft side," muses King, her longtime friend and mentor. "Then, when she came out as a lesbian, the public saw her as being even more tough, like that made her seem harder somehow. But she wears her heart on her sleeve. She cries at the drop of a hat, and if you take the time to look at Martina, her face tells you everything she's feeling. To some people that's very appealing. To others it can be overwhelming."
Overwhelming doesn't begin to describe it. Martina has never been shy about vocalizing her opinions. She dissed the press for making Magic Johnson a hero when he said he'd contracted HIV from sleeping with thousands of women. "It would not be the same if a woman had said that," Martina told journalists. "She would be called a slut."
Obviously unwilling to bow out of the limelight after her so-called retirement from tennis, Martina is currently playing doubles in the Virginia Slims Legends tour, working on a second mystery novel, and can be seen on both HBO and CBS as a tennis commentator. Additionally, she's become a spokeswoman for environmental causes, vegetarianism, and, most bravely, gay and lesbian civil rights. While the community ponders the question of who will be our new leaders, Martina has stuffed the gauntlet in her back pocket and gone off to work.
[In a restaurant] Get your rolls out of the way, babe. Let's begin: The moment you heard that Judy Nelson and Rita Mae Brown, two of your former lovers, were together, what was your first thought? Did you flip out?
Well, it just figured. I thought, They deserve each other. [Laughs] Then I got a letter from Rita Mae saying, "I don't know how you stayed with her for seven years; I lasted for six months. She's the most self-centered, selfish, egotistical woman I've ever known."
I met her only once.
Judy or Rita Mae?
Judy. It was a Joan Rivers talk show episode, "Chic Lesbian Celebrities" or something. It was Rita Mae and Judy Nelson and people like that. I said I was the only one on the show who hadn't slept with you. The one thing I can say for Judy is that she was dressed to the nines, and I had luggage, and she carried it for me. I said, "Go, girl! Cotton Queen, take my luggage. No problem."
That's funny.
What's the weirdest thing anyone's ever done to get your attention?
Just sending me things—like pictures where they're scantily clad. I used to keep them for a while, but then I thought, This is cruel. Some are beautiful, and some are like, "Oh, my God." I had one of a woman in, like, a straitjacket lying in bed. She wrote, "I dream about you every night." I've had a couple of weirdos but nobody really threatening. I think rock stars and movie stars get more of those. Athletes' groupies are pretty normal.
Comics don't even have groupies. We never get people holding lighters and moving back and forth. Anyway, you're responsible for so much of this "being out" stuff, even though people don't give you credit. When you were playing tennis, you were just yourself; it wasn't like you were raising a flag and saying you were gay—you just were. Now you've retired, and you're becoming more of a spokesperson. Why?
For ten years I was pretty low-key for a lot of reasons. One of them was to not upset my sponsors or potential sponsors, until I said, "Fuck this. Screw it. I've been lying low, and nothing's happened, and I'm just going to do what I feel instead of what they want me to do." That's when I became more vocal and an activist. I've grown into it.
Do you like being a role model?
I've grown to. [Sarcastically] I needed to live in the one state—Colorado—where Amendment 2 [which bans gay rights laws statewide] got passed? I tried to talk about the amendment to the local media before the election, and they wouldn't talk to me. They said, "Oh, it's not going to pass, it's no big deal." So I just sort of got thrown into it. They say you choose your leaders. But leaders don't choose to lead. Well, things just sort of fell into my lap by virtue of my being gay, speaking out, and not being afraid—which apparently is a problem for a lot of people.
Why do you think you're not afraid? You know famous gay people. You meet them. They don't speak out. Why are you different?
I don't know any other way to be. I'm surprised that they can't do it. It's like, what's the big deal?
Do you feel good when you know your life has made a big difference to someone else? Do you see it as special and lucky, or is it a hell of a responsibility?
It is a responsibility, but I accept it wholeheartedly. I get paid enough to live up to that responsibility.
Good! I'm tired of hearing people say "I'm not your role model."
What a privilege it is when you think you can affect somebody that positively.
Without outing anybody here, do you ever talk to closeted people and try to convince them to come out?
I may get more into that—trying to persuade people to be more open.
What would you say?
I'd say, "Freedom." I left my birth country to get that, and it was a big risk: I didn't know if I was ever going to see my family again. It was frightening, but I was only 18, so I thought, Oh, piece of cake, I'm going to live forever. It's a cliché, but it's true: If one door shuts, another one opens. Whatever you may lose, you gain so much more. If you're not yourself, you are limiting your own potential; something is stunted in there. I'm convinced that you really do not fully accept yourself as a human being until you're out.
What would you to say to a closeted lesbian actress who says that her personal life isn't what is being represented on-screen and that people want to see her in a certain way; they don't want to know her personal life?
I still don't get that, because they accept straight people pretending to be gay, so why wouldn't they accept gay people pretending to be straight? If you are already an established actress, they accepted you in a straight role, so it's only an illusion anyway.
Coming out is such an important thing to do for yourself.
It's such a freeing experience, not only to be out but to be vocal about it. I left Czechoslovakia for a lot of reasons; there if you spoke your mind, you would go to jail. So for me to be in this country and be quiet because somebody else is uncomfortable with it—well, I'm not going to do that!
People here should go there and live for a year, right?
Yeah. If you want to see oppression, go there. That's what these amendments are trying to do, they're trying to put us back in the closet. If you're out of the closet, they can enforce these amendments; if you're in the closet, they can't, because they don't know you're gay. Therefore, they made these amendments to push us back in the closet, because they don't want to know about us.
Why do you think they care?
Because they're scared. They have these religious rallies where they get 50,000 white men in the stadiums praising the Lord and reinforcing their God-given right to be the head of the family. God-given? They're scared. They're scared of women, they're scared of gays, they're scared of blacks. The more vocal we are, the more scared they are.
What was the first thing you remember doing that felt like a foray into gay culture?
I went to see Rita Mae Brown speak in San Francisco. There were, like, a hundred women in the room.
What about the bars? Do people approach you a lot and try to buy you drinks?
I get in trouble in bars. They all want autographs, and I say, "That's not what I came here for." Then they get pissed off. I'm like, "This is the one place where I thought I could relax. Isn't it enough that I'm out? Isn't it enough that I'm here?" Most of the time they're OK about it, but sometimes they get nasty.
But wasn't it nice when you first went to a gay bar and it was like, "my people!"?
It was amazing. In Dallas I went out a few times. I heard "Ring My Bell" there.
As we breathe down the neck of 40, Martina confesses she remembers disco in the gay bars.
[Laughs] When it was around the first time! I dated myself the other day when I was driving with a friend listening to ABBA. She said, "Is that the music from Priscilla, Queen of the Desert and Muriel's Wedding?" I'm like, "Yeah, ABBA. You mean you didn't hear them the first time?" She said no, and I was like [cries], "Wah!"
Tell us about the Rainbow credit card. Are you really using it?
Yeah, I'll show you.
Can I memorize the number real quick?
I have two. When they first began promoting the card, I said, "Take a picture, take a picture." So I was holding it so that you could see the number. There were a hundred charges on it in the next 24 hours. One woman was trying to buy a fur coat on it, so they had to cancel it.
What is the Legends tour? Who is in it?
Me, Billie Jean King, Chris Evert, Rosie Casals, Betty Stove. The last weekend of the tour is in Delray Beach [Fla.] in December, and then we will do another six weekends next year. We play doubles.
Who's your teammate?
This last time it was Frankie Durr, Tracy Austin, Rosie Casals.
So they are mixing it up agewise?
It's 30 and over, basically. Tracy is 32 and is pregnant for the first time.
Tracy Austin is 32? Oh, I always think of her as being young, but I guess I was young when I was watching her.
She is young. I'm the second youngest, you know? I'm 38. It's nice to be young for a change. There were five players over 30 when I was playing the last few years, and I was still seven years older than they were. I felt so out of place. I was two generations removed from them. I was 20 years older than most of them. I was 38, and I played 15-year-olds. Some of them didn't even have periods. I probably would have gotten hot flashes before they had even gotten their periods.
What do you miss most about being on the tennis tour all the time?
If I miss anything, it's the high that you get from being in a really, really close match in a semifinal or a final against the top players. I don't enjoy it against the players that you are supposed to beat 6-2, 6-2. I'm like, "Why am I here? Why am I going through this?" You have to pump yourself up for this nothing match, and meanwhile the girl's playing the match of her life because she is playing against Martina.
And it means so much to her.
Right. But if I'm in the finals against an Arantxa [Sanchez Vicario] or Monica [Seles] or Steffi [Graf], that's what you live for. That's fun. If I could have anything, that's the part I would have. But all of the other shit that you have to go through—that is absolutely not worth it, so I really don't miss it. Even with the Legends, it's so much fun to be on the court, but then you have to sign autographs, go to cocktail parties, do interviews. I just want to play tennis. Everything else that comes with it is a pain in the butt.
I've always wanted to know this: Do you hear us—lesbian fans—when we're yelling for you from the stands?
Oh, yeah, I do. I know where you are sitting, and it's so great.
It feels good? You like it?
Oh, yeah. I still don't get that 100% acceptance, which was what was amazing for me at the march on Washington. That really was the first time I had it across the board.
You were with family then, though.
Yeah, it was amazing. That's why when you get that feeling from the audience that they are with you 100%, it's wonderful. There are still some athletes who are homophobic or in the closet. But now what I do see is that the women are starting to come out of the closet, at least with each other, and that's nice to see. And the Women's Sports Foundation itself embraces lesbians. They say, "Yes, they are in our sport." They are trying to combat homophobia. They are actually doing workshops on it, and it is part of their literature.
There are gay people on the tour, I imagine.
Very few. There are some, I mean, but on the LPGA [Ladies Professional Golf Association], hello! At one point they were, like, 60% gay in the '70s. But some of them are so far in the closet that they only talk to men. They don't socialize with women in the gallery. It's scary.
It's amazing that somebody can go through their life like that.
It is, and why? Nobody gives a shit. How many of them are going to get endorsements anyway? It's not going to hurt the tour. They're denying their audience, and that's that. The women's golf audience is more gay than the tennis audience.
Did you ever want to have a different job? Did you ever want to be a stewardess or something like that?
I think I would enjoy waitressing. It seems all my friends have waitressed at one time or another to support themselves. It would be fun to just do that.
But you have to serve them. You have to do what they tell you.
Well, I'll do it with an attitude. I would also like to go into space. I would like to have been an astronaut. But then there are so few that do get to go on the shuttle, you know? It's not a very good percentage.
Would you like to walk out in space or walk on the moon?
Yeah. Oh, I'd be scared shitless, but what a way to go! If you're going to die, that's the way to go. Definitely better than, like, being run over by a truck.
I want to die accepting an Academy Award or something really exciting. I saw you on Hart to Hart a long time ago. Do you still have any interest in an acting career?
You know, I would enjoy being an actor.
We've heard all the rumors about your wanting to be a parent. Of course, when you get to be a parent, you'll let us know.
You'll know.
What's the most bizarre rumor you ever read about yourself?
That I was pregnant already. [Laughs] And that I went to a clinic in Italy to try to get inseminated. The doctor there is the one that started this rumor. Probably he was just trying to get publicity for his fucking clinic. I'll probably end up suing his ass, because I have been dispelling those rumors for two years now. They are insulting my integrity, among other things.
Tell me something you do that people would be surprised to learn.
I only brush my teeth at night, I don't brush them in the morning.
You don't? Oh, gross. Well, I'll just be sitting back here.
But I don't have bad breath, because I don't eat shit. I don't eat meat. It makes such a big difference. My favorite meal is really good fruit.
Do you cook?
I'm a good cook, if I do say so myself.
What's it like living in Aspen?
It's physically beautiful, and there's good weather, lots of sunshine. I like being outside; it's invigorating. I ski, and I've started snowboarding. It's so much fun! Driving home the other day, I saw a fox, and there are a lot of elk this year. It's such a thrill.
Are you a neatness freak? Are you a slob? I tried to look around your hotel to see.
I trash a hotel room faster than anybody. In five minutes it looks like I've been there for a month. That's because I want to see everything. If I put things in the drawers, I forget them. So I don't put them away. What's the point in being neat when you've got to leave in two days? At home I'm pretty neat. I'm OK at home. I have a housekeeper who comes once a week, that's it.
What's the biggest misconception that people have about you?
That I sleep around.
Do you think people really believe that?
Well, you said that you were the only one on that talk show that hadn't slept with me. It was a joke you made, but that's the joke—my sleeping around. About dating: First of all, I don't date. Every relationship I've had has been well-documented, and then there have been some rumors with Melissa Etheridge and k.d. lang. As soon as I'm seen with a famous woman, there is a rumor that we are together—even Kathleen Sullivan and Billie Jean.
I have heard that one. I think I spread that one once when I was younger.
It drives me crazy, because I am not promiscuous.
Don't you think a lot of it is about wishful thinking?
In the gay community it's wishful thinking. In the straight community they think, That's what they do; they fuck everybody. I don't.
I'm in the second relationship of my life, so I don't go there either. I don't have time. I have to get my hair done. But I doubt that you can change your image, because you're such a sex symbol for lesbians.
That's fine. k.d.'s a sex symbol too, but she doesn't have that reputation, because she has been private about her private life.
She also hasn't been out in the public eye as long. When you watch TV, what do you watch?
CNN. [Someone asks Martina for an autograph. To the fan:] When I finish eating I'll sign it. OK? [To Westenhoefer:] They're just going to stand here. [To the fan:] Oh, what? You look at me like it's my fault? OK, I'll sign it. They wait until they're finished eating, and then they ask for the autograph. They don't interrupt their own meal.
OK, quick one-liners from you on these things: the O.J. trial.
Disgusting.
Madonna.
Provoking. I've met her. She was very nice to me. But I didn't get anything from her, you know? She's got a wall, and I don't blame her for having it either.
You don't have a wall, which is a surprise. On television you come off as very severe when you're talking.
I know. Unapproachable. But I'm not.
Unless of course you want an autograph. Then you ought to know she's carrying a gun.
[Laughing] I can be unapproachable.
I'm telling you, I watched you play tennis and thought that you were going to be the most intimidating human being in the world, and you are not!
Do you think that somebody is nice because of how they play the game? I play a very intimidating game of tennis.
I always thought that the reason more people didn't support you wasn't so much because you were gay but because you went out there and competed like a man.
Yeah. That threatened a lot of people. I was making no apologies. I played the game the way guys played the game. I was their worst nightmare in every direction. So they had to put me down. "Well, you know, she's communist. She's a bitch. She must be on steroids. She's a man." Whatever. I had to fight them all at one time or another.
I saw you and Melissa Etheridge honored at an event, and fans had no problem approaching Melissa, but they were afraid to go up to you.
It's because I have that air. Melissa's girlfriend, Julie [Cypher], tells me that no matter how big a rock or film star is, they feel like their stardom is a little bit of luck, a lot of fate, and a little bit of faking—whereas I cannot fake it. A lot of Hollywood celebrities have an unbelievable respect for athletes for that reason.
Do you like it when people approach you?
When it's for the right reasons. If people want to recognize me for what I've done and what I stand for. But when they say, "Oh, Martina!" It becomes a really sexual thing; they just want to touch me. People say"Oh, I just touched Martina because she's famous." You're an object, you're not a human being anymore.
What if your celebrity wanes? How will you feel?
It will wane, and then it sort of levels off. Billie Jean is recognized the same now as she was ten years ago, not any less, not any more. It's the same sort of core people who will know me.
Is it possible that young dykes coming up now won't know who you are someday?
That's already happened. I did a thing with a bunch of high school kids, and this 15-year-old had no idea who I was. But after we talked I impressed her by what I do now instead of what I did on the court, and that was great.
More one-liners, please: Bob Dole.
He's scary because he's not true to himself. But then, none of the politicians are. They are pandering to the Right so much. Dole returned the Log Cabin money [a $1,000 campaign donation from Log Cabin Republicans, a gay group]. Hypocrite! Hypocrite!
Log Cabiners. And we're not talking maple syrup here.
I don't get it. How can you be a Republican when you're gay? It just doesn't compute!
They're going to change it from the inside.
Good luck.
OK, let's get into it. What's your type of woman when you're dating?
Apparently it's blonds now. I'm really going to blow it. I guess it's dark-complected but blond-haired women. But if you look at my relationships, I've been with dark-haired women too. It doesn't seem to matter. It's really the person.
Tell me about this person? Is she aggressive? Is she shy?
Strong. At least she appears to be strong, which it turned out she wasn't, like in the case of Judy Nelson. I like strong, but I didn't get it, so I'm going through therapy trying to figure that one out. Five thousand dollars later. [Laughs]
You're getting off cheap! Therapy? How wonderful.
I started therapy about five years ago—after Judy, yeah. That was the Judy fallout, which was great; I wish I had started earlier.
Can you make her pay for it?
I learned my lesson, and I'm a better person for it. I'm making good progress. I think I'm breaking my patterns. I am paying more attention to what people do instead of what they say, which has been my failing, because I pretty much do what I say. I don't play games. I don't do shit. I just say it outright; and so, of course, I think everybody else is like me—which is such an egotistical thing to do.
I think it's more naive than egocentric.
Well, whatever; it's stupid, and I've learned. Now I pay attention to what they do instead of what they say.
Who controls the remote control in your relationships?
Initially it was me, and then it was her.
You lost control.
I completely would lose it. It has happened that way every time, and it's not going to happen that way again.
Oh, you're taking control of the remote control.
No, it's going to be a fifty-fifty deal.
Maybe you could have two remote controls.
It's a balance, but I have no desire to control.
Are you surfing the Net?
Absolutely. It's so much fun. It's nice to be anonymous; people don't know who you are. I have chatted in the Women's Space a few times.
They don't know it's you. Do you check out what they're saying about you?
They have talked about me a couple of times. One time they said, "Well, I can't believe Martina left Judy. What was she thinking?" And I wrote, "Maybe she was trying to keep her money and her sanity." [Laughs]
Has anyone ever made a pass at you when they didn't know who you were?
No. That would be funny. I had a guy walk up to me the other day; I was sitting in a bar. I was actually icing my ankle because I had just sprained it that day. Anyway, this guy comes from behind and says, "Are you Stephanie Agassi?" [Laughing] With a straight face I turned around and said, "I am most definitely not that." He did not have a clue.
Stephanie Agassi? Wow, he was a big tennis fan.
It would have been interesting if he had tried to pick me up, because he wouldn't have known that I was gay. Men are so threatened by famous women anyway, and then on top of that I'm gay.
You are? God, that changes the whole focus of the interview.
I've been wondering about that.
How does someone prove she's gay? "Oh, here's videos with me and Madonna."
Well, I don't have any incriminating photos—which is probably a good thing. [Laughs] If there were any, you would have seen them by now.
What do you wear on your wrists? I've always wanted to know.
[Pointing to different bracelets] That's my AIDS bracelet from Billie Jean. This is from my best friend in Czechoslovakia's daughter. I've had this since second grade. This one is from her mother. This is from my best friend who lives in Texas; she gave it to me when I broke Chris Evert's record. This is from k.d. I've lost it a couple of times and found it again.
Martina, you've done so much. What are you going to do now? Just hang?
Have fun for a while. My biggest goal is to find a mate. I'm a Libra, and I need to find my soul mate. I've had my horoscope done, and it's amazing how accurate it's come out. So I just hope to get it right next time.
Anything else about your soul mate?
I wouldn't mind being with somebody who's more famous than I am. People would want her autograph, not mine.
Hey, who's that woman with Suzanne? No, I'm kidding.
I really have had my bit in the spotlight, and I don't need it. I really don't need it.
So what do you wish for your future, aside from the mate thing?
Happiness. I wish for health and happiness. Spending time with my friends and family. I wish for personal growth, which was kind of stunted for about 20 years, so I'm trying to catch up.
Have you pierced anything on your body?
Only my ears! I'm thinking about getting a tattoo. I might do that.
What would you get?
I thought about that yin-yang symbol, but I had one of the temporary ones and didn't like it.
Where would you have it?
I have no idea. I'll do something small somewhere, where only a few people can see it—hopefully only one.
So that will be the new cool thing: "I know what Martina's tattoo is."
[Laughs] That would be the test of how many people really, truly slept with me. "Who's seen Martina's tattoo?" There will be only one, hopefully.